Author Topic: Changes to Petrol  (Read 564 times)

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Offline Paul Dawkins

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Changes to Petrol
« on: June 21, 2021, 05:14:46 PM »
I just had this email from the MOT services memos.

Changes to petrol over the summer
This summer, motorists across the country will start to see the standard (95 octane, often branded as ‘unleaded’) petrol grade in the UK become E10.

E10 petrol contains up to 10% ethanol, current petrol contains up to 5% ethanol (referred to as E5). E5 will continue to be available in some forecourts in super grade (97+ octane).

A campaign to tell motorists about the changes and the environmental benefits launched this month.

We’re sharing this information with you because a small number of vehicles (around 5%) will not be able use the E10 fuel. Petrol vehicles not compatible with E10 will need to keep using E5 petrol, which will remain available in the ‘super’ grade of petrol (97+ octane).

Motorists can check online
We know that MOT garages are a trusted source of information for motorists. Which means some of your customers may come to you for advice or guidance if they hear about the E10 fuel changes.

The Department for Transport has introduced an online GOV.UK E10 vehicle compatibility checker which motorists can use to find out if their car, motorcycle or moped can use E10 fuel.

Please share this with any customers who want to find out whether their vehicle is compatible.

DfT has produced a poster on E10 fuel which you can download and display in your garage, if you are able to.

Getting further advice
Some motorists may still be unsure if they can use E10 fuel and will look for further advice. We know that you may not be able to answer all of these queries.

If customers cannot confirm whether their vehicle is compatible, they should check with their car, motorcycle or scooter manufacturer directly. If in doubt, motorists should continue to use E5 available in “super” grade (97+ octane) petrol.

Incorrectly fuelling a vehicle with E10 petrol will not cause immediate harm, but if it is used regularly it could damage engine parts.

Find out more about E10 fuel
E10 is one simple step to help motorists reduce the environmental impact of every journey they take, through reducing carbon emissions.

You can visit the E10 fuel explained guidance on GOV.UK to get more information.
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Offline tractorman

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 07:24:18 PM »
Thanks for the info Paul.

Offline tony2stroke

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 10:48:59 PM »
Thanks for sharing that.

Offline CBM

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2021, 09:26:38 AM »
Below is a post I made on Norbo's site a few days ago where folks have been having the same discussion, even with Esso's efforts it's still all a right royal pain in the bollox  :-[ :-[ :-[
******************************
Depending on where you live in the UK ethanol fuel always has been and still is available from Esso and they have no current plans to add it to their new Synergy Supreme +99 fuel unless forced to do so either.

Their website states:
What’s in our Synergy Supreme+ 99 premium petrol
Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation.

Offline tony2stroke

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2021, 10:21:06 AM »
Again, thanks for sharing that.

Online tore

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2021, 02:50:19 PM »
Thanks for sharing!

Anyone knows if RDs are compatible? 
Tore

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Offline niceonept

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 03:11:57 PM »
This is getting quite confusing!
For decades I have always been led to believe the best fuel to use in a two-stroke engine was low-octane (equivalent of 2-star) unleaded fuel.
But this latest advice is to use high octane fuel. Presumably this is because these new high octane fuels have less than 5% ethanol and the ethanol is far more damaging than the higher octane?
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Offline Ridgy

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 06:43:27 PM »
We probably need a scientist to chip in with all the facts! I am not one of those but from what I can gather, the issues that might affect old bikes could be:

Ethanol degrading over time when stood, releasing water into the fuel and causing corrosion in the tank and carb;
Some people report degradation of certain types of fuel hose - the ethanol reacts with certain rubbers apparently. These are already things people claim with e5 so presumably would be a bit worse with e10.

I think they are also saying that some older vehicles are not designed to run on e10, but perhaps that is more of an issue for complex fuel systems incl. fuel injection...that's the impression i got anyway.

Other than that, it's still petrol and should burn in a basic engine, but maybe time will tell when people start using it and see (or don't see) noticeable results. As niceonept says, a lot of old jap machinery was designed to run on 2 star from the 70s anyway and if it's still 95 octane it might be ok unless you're experiencing pinking.

One to watch and experiment with i suppose.

Offline Tailchaser

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 07:23:32 PM »
There are quite a lot of what would be classed as 'modern' cars that can't or are not recommended to use E10 fuel mainly pre-2000 built e.g Nissan Micra so it's not just a vintage motoring issue. It's all well and good for the DOT to say just use super but that's probably £5 to £7 dearer for a tank on a car and in a cash strapped household that's quite a big hit.

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Offline Sarlat04

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 09:27:02 PM »
Hmmm...

 "actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)"

Is that not most of the UK (except the midlands, southeast and northeast) - struggling to see what the 'technical supply reasons are? :D :D :D

Online [Arrow]

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 10:31:36 PM »
Thanks for sharing Paul. This could be a game changer for older bikes. If I still had a bike I would be using super 97 octane (well, I was anyway).
Just to be clear, a bike that was designed to run on 2 star can run higher octane fuel without any issue. It gives greater protection against pre-ignition for one thing. The super also keeps better, useful for bikes that aren't used for commuting every day.

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Online Astute Greaser

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 11:22:33 PM »
Hmmm...

 "actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)"

Is that not most of the UK (except the midlands, southeast and northeast) - struggling to see what the 'technical supply reasons are? :D :D :D
It is not viable for Esso to have refineries in every part of the country. Its common for the big companies to buy in from their competitors on a reciprocal basis to supply their forecourts.

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 11:52:49 PM »
Hmmm...

 "actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)"

Is that not most of the UK (except the midlands, southeast and northeast) - struggling to see what the 'technical supply reasons are? :D :D :D
It is not viable for Esso to have refineries in every part of the country. Its common for the big companies to buy in from their competitors on a reciprocal basis to supply their forecourts.
That makes sense to me. I guess the ethanol is added to the base product as standard by some companies, before the special additive is added which makes the petrol into a branded product.

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Offline zed1015

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 07:46:22 AM »
We probably need a scientist to chip in with all the facts! I am not one of those but from what I can gather, the issues that might affect old bikes could be:


Some people report degradation of certain types of fuel hose - the ethanol reacts with certain rubbers apparently. These are already things people claim with e5 so presumably would be a bit worse with e10.

I think they are also saying that some older vehicles are not designed to run on e10, but perhaps that is more of an issue for complex fuel systems incl. fuel injection...that's the impression i got anyway.


I'm not a scientist but my youngest son is a chemical engineer who works in automotive designing brake fluids ,coolants etc for the major vehicle manufacturers.

Older vehicles are deemed not suitable to run on increased percentages of ethanol mainly due to the non compatibility of the Nitrile rubbers etc originally used in the fuel systems fuel lines and 'O' rings etc.
It is also highly oxygenated and so increasingly corrosive to other materials especially with it being a polar liquid which attracts water.
You should replace all fuel lines and as many internal fuel system components with VITON as this is ethanol resistant.


Online tore

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Re: Changes to Petrol
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 10:28:09 AM »
I have not found ethanol to be any more agressive than petrol to the fuel system. Petrol seems to age quicker than ethanol (you know the smell of aged petrol...). Petrol attacts water but do not mix too well so it usually ends up at the bottom of the tank with rust as result.

Many of the popular liners in the tanks would not last long too with increased ethanol (e.g POR15 is not ethanol safe).

The most worry with the increased ethanol mix is that there will be a need for rejetting. The pump may be labeled E10 but you can get any mix up to 10% ethanol. This can cause troubles with the jetting that depends on what you got when you laste filled the tank. It assumes you have electronic fuel injection with lambda-sensor  :(
Tore

Suzuki T20 1969
RD350B (Indonesia) 1975
BMW R1150GS Adv 2004
HVA Roulette 1957
NV 125 1955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k85mRPqvMbE