Author Topic: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)  (Read 3931 times)

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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (remove with battery!?)
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 11:07:17 PM »
Yes I've done that a good few times over the years with fasteners stuck in steel components Ridgy but not sure if you can get an earth on an alloy head. Suppose you can just earth the mig to the stud tho.

Also worried that I'll weld nut on and shear the stud anyway.

This video suggest the battery current is actually breaking the bond the threads have inside the component.

I once tackled an aluminium scaffold leg where the adjusting ring had seized to the (very coarse) thread on the leg. There were no access problems. Got plenty heat on it. dipped it in all sorts of fluids. Much less fragile than an 8mm stud. You could hammer on the ears of the ring until they broke off and still the thing wouldn't budge so ended up cutting a slot in the ring which got it moving.

When it was free and revealed the amount of white corrosion that had been between the components it was quite a shock. Nothing would have shifted it but it does show you how deep electrolytic corrosion can set-in 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 07:58:17 PM by Foy(notFox) »
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (remove with battery!?)
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2017, 09:56:58 PM »
Surely you can clamp earth onto one of the other exhaust studs while you weld a nut or blob on, but the bolt may snap even shorter, I am sure an induction heater would do it too if you have enough bolt to grip, you should be able to hire one.

I've seen them used on Wheeler Dealers. Ed China says they're about £600! but I didn't think about hiring one. I like the battery trick tbh.

Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUlJ5f2-FcQ
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (remove with battery acid)
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 11:38:49 PM »
Don't know if I mentioned it but whilst I was trying to dissolve a steel component with Alum I was also trying to do one with battery acid.

The difference here is that you don't need any heat so theoretically you could dissolve broken studs out of full engines without stripping them down. he shortcoming of the Alum procedure was that without heat it doesn't work.

So as a test piece I got a spare Honda 50cc head and tried to dissolve an M6 bolt out of the exhaust-stud hole. It wasn't a seized one. I just put a bolt in the hole and stuck a plastic lid over the hole with Sika sealer then filled the cap with battery acid from one of the ready-mixed tubs you get with a new battery.

Problems I encountered were that the process seemed slow and it was difficult to get a totally secure seal with the sealer so you'd get a little acid trickling onto the alloy.

I was thinking perhaps you need neat acid, not the diluted stuff for battery and also need to improve the sealing operation. It was kinda forgotten about over Christmas but I found it the other day with no traces of the bolt in it and quite a bit of nasty-looking staining. So great news re the bolt but not so good re the damage to the alloy



there was a bolt in here a couple of weeks ago







ouch! nasty staining from acid where it trickled over the alloy   


So I took the part up the road and rinsed it in a solution of hot water and baking soda then clean water then dried it off and cleaned up all the bad areas with a brass-bristled brush and it looks like the damage is superficial. There are certainly worse marks on the part from before I got it.

Also the threaded where the bolt was seems remarkably clean so mb the acid doesn't really harm the alloy. It seems someone has tapped a wider thread at the top of the hole (M8?) at some time but not went in very far as the original M6 thread still exist for most of the length of the bore.




alloy looks ok after cleaning



as does hole where bolt was

So a big success then and inspiration to try it out on real projects? - like the exhaust-studs on the XJR1300

Well perhaps not as maybe the bolt wasn't in there. I'll report back once the area has been forensically-swept
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (remove with battery acid)
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2018, 01:23:58 AM »
Ok so as I suspected the bolt wasn't in the head but I chucked it in a cup with an inch or so of battery acid (ie diluted) and it is disappearing. To get it to do that on an engine in-situ would be very difficult. What about neat battery acid? Well tbh you hear so many incidents of this heinous crime of ppl throwing it in other ppl's faces that I'm surprised it's even available to buy unchecked.

Anyway the point of this post is that I got two of the XJR studs out tonight and they got a taste of Freeze Yer Nuts Off spray and a mix of acetone/brake fluid.

I've no idea if the above chemicals helped but one of the studs had had quite a bit of time lavished on it the other week. I welded a little blob on the side and tried to tap it free with a chisel but it didn't seem to budge. Tonight I gave it a little of the acetone/brake fluid mix and put some vise-grips on it and it turned straight away  :-\

I then moved to next one and tried similar approach minus the welding and it didn't budge. Then moved to other end of the cylinder head and that one backed-out with two nuts locked on it. The interesting thing is how clean the hidden threads were. It's given me the enthusiasm to tackle the others. One or two have been replaced in the past so I only really need to get 4 more out.

Am thinking with the really thin one I'll bulk it up with weld then tackle it.


weld-blob for chiselling-on didn't work the other week but tonight stud came out easily


1 down. 7, or less, to go



another one came out easily but I suspect that one came out easily before
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (carnage)
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2018, 02:36:34 PM »
So like a naive fool I approached the XJR on Saturday night expecting another two or more studs to wind out. They weren't moving with grips on them so I moved it up a gear. I figured that as the hidden threads of the the two removed were clean as a whistle it was safe to mutilate the outside bits by welding nuts on as they were sure to come out.

Wrong. The one on LHS wouldn't budge and now it has no thread on it as the nuts welded on rubbed them away when they were wound off. Don't know what the studs are made off but the MIG welder isn't penetrating them at all. So on the LHS we have the full stud but no thread to speak of.

Moving to the RHS I upped the ante with more weld and more force. The thing was red hot at the end with blobs of glowing weld dripping off it. The studs just snapped and interestingly the casting was still stone cold. I was right when I said that putting heat on the stud won't help as it doesn't ecxpand the casting. Only thing that might expand is the end of the stud.

So am royaly f&*("d  now  >:(

Got someone else's property in worse nick than when they handed it over to me.

Back on it today. There might have been an miracle and they'll have came loose since I last attacked them (this is what seemed to happen with the first one to yield) but now I think I'll need to weld bolts/studs on to the remains of the original studs. Total bodge job but at least I can them get the exhausts c/w new gaskets on and see if it runs properly.

I had a look at the Haynes manual regarding removing the cylinder-head to get the studs drilled out but it seems the camshaft and camshaft caps are made of chocolate and will break if you disturb them. Don't think I could face more carnage  :(


futility


no useable thread on this one now


   
disaster


shambles


Forgot to say I also tried to make a small hole, at the interface of the stud and head, with a multi-tool and carbide burr to get some fluid into the hidden thread but the tool was useless and I'm not going out to buy a decent brand (Dremel for example) to try again
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 10:57:17 PM »
So I've missed a bit out here where I repaired the broken stud by welding on part of a new one (iirc). On that port therefore I've now got two useable studs but I'm not happy with it. Want all eight to be new.


outer exhaust port has now had semi-respectable repair to broken stud



Been thinking for ages about some sort of concentric-tube system to drill hole bang in centre of old stud then widen it out. Usually these schemes result in disappointment but I had no other option and spent around £15 on steel tube and cobalt bits.


my kit: original stud (M8); 12mm OD x 8mm ID tube; 7.94mm OD x 4mm ID tube; 4mm cobalt drill bit



bigger tube slides onto original stud



smaller tube is snug fit inside



peek after 1st contact looks promising



a little more



and more




but pushed too hard and broke 4mm bit this far in



so stepped-up to 5mm which seemed to cut much better



and finally 6mm




despite best efforts hole still off-centre

So all in all it went to plan. Am not too concerned about the hole going slightly off as I was trying to drill right through a full stud. On a shorter length - ie the bit in block - it will be less pronounced. Also notice that if drill bit breaks it still comes out of the stud easily unlike a tap or easy-out.

So I think I'll try again on another stud then move too the engine for real. Might actually need to take the engine out to get in at the inner studs. We'll see     
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:35:37 PM by Foy(notFox) »
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Online Alvin

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2018, 10:04:48 AM »
great reading this,
why not continue with the 4mm then when you get so far, cut off a piece of the stud at the top this may stop it going off ctr a bit, sort of.    :'(
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Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2018, 08:04:21 PM »
That's a good idea Alvin S' but you're a bit limited by having to keep the stud long enough to have something to put the guide-tubes on.

Also once a hole has went squint you can't really straighten it up. You may notice this if you ever try to widen a drilled hole by pushing drill sideways. I never works lol.

I guess once you've made the initial hole the tubes could be done away with but after thinking of this scheme and determined that they have a purpose and are guiding that drill-bit home  ;D

NB are you related to Mr A Stardust;)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 08:05:59 PM by Foy(notFox) »
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Offline Gr8uncleal

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2019, 09:14:12 PM »
I've come to this topic a little late, but if you did manage to centre your drilling, then you could try drilling out to 1mm less than the width of the bolt and then use a tap to get a brand new thread.

I've done this on a couple of seat bases and a Suzuki GT550 mudguard. However, these were easily detachable from the bikes and there was a little leeway when the hole drilled isn't dead centre. Exhaust studs are a pain in the proverbial.

Where possible, a pillar drill on about 600rpm and corresponding vice should be used - makes life so much easier!

Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2019, 11:13:44 PM »
Hi Gr8uncleal. Don't worry about being late to the thread lol. Am a great believer in adding to old threads.

Anyway the drill-guide has one major flaw....

When you get the shell that thin it tends to tear away flush with the component. I was drilling a couple of screws out my Jag V12  heads and that happened leaving me with a thin shell in the head and I didn't have full success picking it out so thankfully I didn't do it for real on the other guy's XJR.

The issue is still haunting me. I got a new head for the XJR from Japan and it's in great condition so I've got the engine back out the bike (only took about 4 hours) and am now going to have one last go at getting the studs out before giving-in and putting the new head on which will mean more money on gasket set & skim  ::)
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Offline Gr8uncleal

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2019, 07:32:07 AM »
Thanks Foy.

Would the tap not remove those dregs and leave you with a nice new thread?! Or have I misunderstood (wouldn't be the first time!).

As Rowan Atkinson said in that Barclaycard advert, " We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"! 

Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2019, 10:02:28 AM »
 :D I don't remember that one but the guy was a comic genius.

Anyway... yes the tap removing the dregs would be ideal but I think I'd end up cutting a new thread squint as it's difficult to get the tap to catch the old female thread in exactly the right place  :-\
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Offline Bluehaze

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2019, 11:04:15 AM »
It's an exercise in perseverence alright.

If you had access to a vertical mill with a suitable angle plate and/or tilting table, you could use an end mill to machine out a stuck or broken stud.
Choose size a bit smaller than the thread's root diameter.
It doesn't tend to wander like a drill bit, and the job can be secured to the mill's table so there's less panic.
Still a tedious job.

If there is one or a few broken studs, and they are close to other good studs or threaded holes, all on a flat surface (that is, not this job) without a mill you could make a thick steel plate and drill holes in it to attach to the job using the good studs/bolts. It would fit over the problem stud. Accurately measure position, and mark the location of the problem stud and drill a hole slightly smaller than the root diameter in the plate, in a drill press to keep it perpendicular. Attach the plate, the pilot hole you made will prevent the drill from wandering.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:05:55 AM by Bluehaze »

Offline Foy(notFox)

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2019, 09:54:36 PM »
I'm actually working on something like that Bluehaze.

I have 5 (yes 5) Honda 50cc heads which all have some issue with the exhaust studs and there is not one flat/parallel face on the head to hold it in any vice/jaw so I had a 3-legged jig that bolts to various parts of the head to hold the exhaust-face horizontal. Next step is to make something like you suggest that matches the spacing of the studs. The exhaust port is 33mm diameter so ideally a tube in there with a flange welded round it incorporating drill guides would work.

Won't be as easy to get the XJR1300 engine onto a drill-press so it's a case of making a similar guide using the exhaust port and stud-spacing as a guide   
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Offline ggreen1959

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Re: steel stud/bolt stuck in aluminium (home-brewed drill-guide)
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 03:00:20 PM »
I have had success with a left hand drill. Yes the drill is driven anti-clockwise and as it goes in the heat loosens the stud which usually comes out on the end of the drill. All by hand with no jig. Just cut and file flat, centre punch accurately and go for it.
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